00:00:00: Introduction
00:02:39: Why working with introverts/extroverts issues
00:04:38: A easy definition of extroversion/introversion
00:06:23: Some introvert traits
00:08:33: Some extrovert traits
00:11:58: Concepts for motion…
00:12:26: … 1: you/me/we
00:15:35: … 2: discover what works
00:18:38: … 3: be looking out
00:23:37: Closing ideas
Helen Tupper: Hello, I am Helen.
Sarah Ellis: And I am Sarah.
Helen Tupper: And that is the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly present the place we dive into the ups, downs, ins and outs of your world of labor, and offer you some concepts for motion and a few instruments to check out that can assist you together with your improvement. We actually, actually care about you feeling assured about your profession, about you having a little bit of readability about what you wish to obtain, and also you with the ability to go after what you need. And so hopefully this podcast shall be a helpful lesson that can assist you to try this. And if it’s the first time that you’re listening, it’s value understanding that we create numerous completely different assets to help you.
So, we have got issues like our PodSheets, they’re one-page summaries that you may obtain afterwards and so they’ll show you how to to take motion. It’s going to have all of the concepts that we discuss at this time. We’ve got PodNotes, which we placed on social, so ensure you’re following us @amazingif on Instagram or LinkedIn. They’re good swipable and shareable summaries, if you already know different people who they could assist. And in addition, PodPlus, which is a weekly get-together with a bunch of like-minded learners. It is fully free, it is half-hour, it is Thursday at 9.00am within the UK, and it is a good place to dive in a bit deeper into what we’re speaking about at this time, which is, how can introverts and extroverts work higher collectively?
Sarah Ellis: The best way that you simply began that, that does very a lot sound like, significantly for our common listeners who will know that I am extra of an introvert and also you’re extra of an extrovert, that we now must work higher collectively since you have been like —
Helen Tupper: The place might this concept have come from for this podcast?!
Sarah Ellis: However truly, for as soon as, that is not the place this concept has come from. I feel it is extra some insights that we have learn and we all know it is a matter numerous persons are concerned about. And we additionally do recognise that as someone who is comparatively introverted, and I feel it is in all probability honest to say very extroverted, we’ll come on to that, we work rather well collectively, however that has taken work. So, for that relationship to be higher, for us to see all of the optimistic advantages of getting completely different types, I feel over time we have been increasingly more intentional and considerate about that; whereas initially after we have been simply associates, I feel you do not actually care in the identical method.
Helen Tupper: Properly I feel now, I see it as like an actual energy of ours. I feel, I do not know, 5, ten years in the past, I in all probability would have been like, “Oh, this distinction can generally be a bit troublesome”; whereas now, as a result of Sarah and I are actually entering into writing our third e book in the meanwhile, all I see is the advantages of it, as a result of I simply know that it will get higher due to what Sarah brings and I do know that I deliver stuff too. And it isn’t simply the e book, it is numerous issues. And so now, I simply actually worth it and I see it as virtually a not-so-secret energy of our partnership, is that we have each bought these variations in introversion and extroversion.
Sarah Ellis: And I feel this issues for everybody for 3 causes. Firstly, most of us do not work alone, we work in groups, so there’s at all times going to be a combination of introverts and extroverts. And a few folks may also establish as what’s generally described as ambiverts, the place they form of go, “Oh, I really feel like I am a little bit of each”. And as we have at all times stated, or I at all times say, I at all times assume labels will not be useful, it is simply extra about self-awareness. So, as we describe this at this time, simply see which one among these feels most such as you.
I feel the second cause this issues is that whenever you do that properly, you’re simply more practical, you obtain a greater stability. And truly, there’s some actually attention-grabbing articles and tales you’ll be able to examine introvert/extrovert mixtures. Wozniak and Steve Jobs at Apple might be essentially the most well-known one. However that is as a result of they create very various things, they create very completely different strengths.
Then thirdly, I do assume generally extrovert/introvert relationships could cause friction. These relationships can really feel like there’s numerous battle, they’ll simply really feel difficult. And possibly you recognise that within the work that you simply do, so that you assume, “Properly, I’ve started working with this individual”. It may be a supervisor, it may be a peer, and also you simply know they have a really completely different type and method. And also you’re considering, “Properly, how can we constructively transfer ahead in order that we will get a few of these advantages that we will describe?”
Helen Tupper: Properly, I feel till I might actually labored with you for so long as we’ve now, I feel I might in all probability solely actually considered introversion and extroversion in all probability when it annoyed me. More often than not I do not give it some thought, however whenever you’re sort of annoyed or discover somebody troublesome, you are like, “Oh, that is as a result of they’re like this”. And I feel now, since clearly we have labored collectively so intently for fairly a very long time now, I am like, “Oh my gosh, there is a actually completely different alternative on this”. If you can begin to essentially take into consideration what is the profit that, you already know, me being an extrovert and also you being an introvert, what is the profit that that brings, after which I virtually look out and look ahead now to working with introverts due to it. That is very completely different to the place I in all probability considered this years in the past.
Sarah Ellis: So, a quite simple definition of introversion and extroversion, a form of go-to one if you happen to’re searching for an actual shortcut, is commonly, the place do you get your power from? So sometimes, introverts recharge and re-energise. I consider it as like, what does it take to plug your battery in? If you have to recharge your battery to your laptop computer or no matter, what does that appear to be for you? And introverts are likely to recharge solo, by themselves or maybe in very small teams, significantly with folks they know very properly.
Extroverts, however, recharge with different folks, prefer to be surrounded by different folks, in all probability fairly joyful in huge teams. And we’ll dive a bit of bit extra into simply being a bit cautious about making assumptions round introversion and extroversion. I at all times assume it is actually vital that folks describe it for themselves, you already know, like what does that imply; what does introversion imply to me? As a result of for instance, I feel there are many people who find themselves way more introverted than me, and I feel their working type would in all probability nonetheless be very completely different to mine. So, we each may be, on the floor, introverts; however then, say if you happen to labored with that individual versus me, it’d really feel very completely different. So, I feel simply give all people the chance to go, “Oh, after which that is the way it reveals up”. However definitely for the 2 of us, that is positively true about how we plug our batteries in.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, I feel two good questions are, which one do you establish extra with, introvert or extrovert; not placing you in a field, you are not solely that, however which do you establish extra with? And, how does that present up for you, to the purpose that it may be fairly nuanced and we’re not making an attempt to say, “In consequence, these are 5 issues that decide the way you present up at work”.
Sarah Ellis: So, we thought it would be useful simply to begin by Helen sharing the introvert traits she sees in me, after which I am going to share the extrovert traits that I see in Helen.
Helen Tupper: So, these are some introvert traits that I positively see in Sarah quite a bit. She’s very reflective and considerate. So, Sarah stays in her head for much longer than me and considers issues, I feel, extra deeply, which could be very, very helpful. Additionally, considers issues from different folks’s views as properly, I see that quite a bit. She has fewer relationships than me, however they’re deeper, they’re longer, and I feel you’ll be able to ask extra of these folks due to that. So, I form of see Sarah with the ability to amplify asks of the people who she has these relationships with. A particular discomfort with giant teams, so we simply keep away from them mainly, and the concept of huge teams. So, that may be creating a giant Squiggly Profession group, and Sarah shall be like, “Oh, I am undecided about that”, simply the concept of it, as a result of she’ll be considering, “Is that efficient? Is everybody going to be comfy in that?” simply the concept of it. However then the fact of it.
I’d say the fact of it’s simply, Sarah will solely get pleasure from a big group — it isn’t that she will be able to’t be in it, however she’s going to solely wish to be a part of it for a shorter time period. So, as an instance we’re having a giant occasion with numerous folks. Sarah will certainly be there, and he or she’ll positively present up and interact with numerous folks, however I can virtually see the power waning. I can see when Sarah’s like, “That is it now, I must go”. It is usually a time after I’m kicking in, however Sarah’s like, “Helen, I am off. You type this bar invoice and also you begin the following one, since you’re clearly going to maintain going”! So I positively see sort of a cutoff. Doesn’t suggest Sarah would not become involved in them, however there’s positively a cutoff line when it is sufficient.
I see a really completely different dynamic from Sarah in small-group conditions versus social conditions; simply behaves actually otherwise, in a roundabout way, surprisingly. So, to the purpose about, do not assume all introverts are the identical, generally Sarah may be a lot chattier than me in sure conditions and I was like, “What is going on on right here? I am the chatty one”, and I might be quiet and assume that truly it is nervousness. I now know that it is the method that Sarah feels accountable for that scenario, is to speak in it quite a bit, as a result of I do not know, I feel it is nerves; whereas I by no means used to grasp that.
So, I feel watch out to not make assumptions. However they’re a number of the issues that I see in you that I now know that that is how introversion reveals up for you.
Sarah Ellis: So, some extrovert traits that I see in Helen. Firstly, she radiates power in a room, so that you’re by no means going to overlook her, you may at all times know she’s there. And we have identified one another for a very long time, and even in our college cohort, that was true. However I feel significantly in huge teams, it is virtually like your power will get greater, the larger the room, the larger the group. I am searching for the fireplace escape and also you’re identical to, I do not know, I really feel simply glowing.
Helen Tupper: I might been searching for the slide.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah!
Helen Tupper: I might be like, “The place’s the slide within the room? We will have a celebration!
Sarah Ellis: It is actually useful as a result of it simply means I haven’t got to do it, so it is so good! Socialising is certainly a supply of delight and it is one thing so that you can stay up for, and I simply see how vital it’s in your weeks. And it is humorous, I feel generally there will be a night the place you may be out virtually partying and I may be sitting at dwelling working and I simply generally assume, “Oh, properly we’re each joyful in our work. It simply appears to be like very completely different”. I see much more blurred strains and bounds between work relationships and friendships with you. I imply, I actually overheard you on a name yesterday suggesting to someone like, “Oh, ought to we exit for a drink? Ought to we get dinner?” And I used to be considering —
Helen Tupper: I imply, that is gone within the diary, that is completely gone within the diary.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I do know, I heard you then doing it. I used to be simply considering that occurs quite a bit much less incessantly with me. A few of my finest associates are from folks I’ve met at work. However I feel you try this very incessantly and virtually with numerous completely different folks, and once more, to the purpose the place I am not assuming you are a extremely good listener. So, I feel generally folks have these very floor stage assumptions, “Oh, extroverts, they’re form of, I do not know, loud, noisy, they at all times shout the loudest”. And I am at all times like, properly, you are unmissable, that is positively true, however you do not really feel the necessity to shout the loudest, you do not at all times really feel the necessity to have presence via interrupting or saying essentially the most. And we talked earlier than, I feel you are a extremely good listener and getting even higher on a regular basis, and you do not have that nervous power that I positively have and sort of must work fairly exhausting now on making an attempt to not have, as a result of often it isn’t that useful. So, they’re the extrovert traits that I see in you.
Helen Tupper: I feel it is truly, it is a helpful factor to ask your self, you already know, if I establish as an extrovert, how do I feel that reveals up? But in addition, to get that performed again by someone else, since you may get some fairly stunning insights in that, which I feel could possibly be simply helpful. It is extra knowledge to your improvement, as we frequently say.
Sarah Ellis: And I noticed lately that Adam Grant, who has talked earlier than about being introverted — and there’s a nice e book in case you are an introvert referred to as Quiet, The Energy of Introverts by a woman referred to as Susan Cain, and I feel Adam Grant and Susan Cain know one another, and he talks about what an introvert means to him. So truly, he stated for him, it isn’t about the place he will get his power. So he stated, for him being an introvert shouldn’t be about the place you get your power, it is the way you deal with stimulation. Introverts are energised by folks too, and I actually recognise that, I am nonetheless actually energised by folks. However he goes on to say, “We’re simply simply exhausted by loud events, shut talkers and infinite houseguests. I am not anti-social, I am simply pro-quiet”. And you already know whenever you learn one thing and also you’re nodding so exhausting, and also you’re identical to, “Sure, that”? So, I am actually joyful to see folks simply so long as they go, so long as they depart!
Helen Tupper: Among the WhatsApp messages that Sarah and I’ve about social conditions, in all types of how, are very attention-grabbing and by no means to be shared exterior of our WhatsApps! So, we’ve bought three concepts for motion now, which we’ve positively tried and examined these. So, they’re very a lot issues which have labored for us in sort of managing this stability. And I feel what we’re making an attempt to say is, you may in all probability not have the form of partnership the place you have bought someone that you simply work with as intently as Sarah and I do, who’s your reverse, however you’ll be able to form of spot individuals who may need a barely completely different desire to you and use these concepts for motion to work higher collectively.
Sarah Ellis: So, thought for motion one we’re calling “you/me/we”. And the primary stage of this concept is to establish key classes the place you assume your variations may present up. So, this could possibly be as a mission group, this could possibly be sort of one-to-one, so like me and Helen speaking about this collectively, you could possibly do that as a group. So, the three that Helen and I got here up with have been relationships, considering types, and the way we progress tasks. In all probability fairly common, so no less than I might think about two of these three shall be useful for most individuals. You additionally may need another ones that we have not considered. And the concept right here is that you simply form of give all people the chance to do, “Properly, what does that imply for you?” by way of like, so let’s take “considering type”. So, if I stated to Helen, “So, Helen, how do you prefer to assume issues via?” You’d say…?
Helen Tupper: “Out loud, with others, in a short time”.
Sarah Ellis: After which I’d say, “Okay, that is actually attention-grabbing. What that appears like for me is time on my own, not being placed on the spot, being fairly reflective, after which sharing after I’m prepared”. So, already you’ll be able to hear, listeners, there’s comparatively excessive ranges of distinction there. So, we have finished the you/me bit. So, then you definately transfer on to the we, which is the good thing about us working collectively and bringing our distinction. So, the we is the good thing about us then working collectively. And take a look at ending a press release that begins with, “Collectively, we will…” So as an instance, for instance, Helen and I are engaged on a podcast matter thought, and we’re making an attempt to determine, is that this going to be helpful for our listeners? What let’s imagine there’s, “Collectively, we will ensure we actually assume it via correctly, that the analysis is there, actually ensure it connects with our insights, with what we’re right here to do, as a result of that is what I’d deliver. I’d ask and reply numerous questions of myself in my very own mind with out speaking to anybody else”.
Helen Tupper: So true!
Sarah Ellis: “Whereas Helen would put that concept on Instagram and LinkedIn inside a minute, and he or she’ll get a great deal of dwell suggestions”. And so then collectively, we have got all of these completely different knowledge factors that helps us to determine virtually, we get each quickness and high quality to then go, is {that a} good podcast matter; is that one thing we must always transfer ahead on? And so there, it is only a actually particular instance of how truly we’re we’re form of higher collectively.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, and I actually see that on the opposite issues, so like on relationships for instance, we’ve a greater vary of relationships, as a result of Sarah has these people who we will make the large asks of as a result of she’s actually invested in them deeply, after which I’ve simply actually random people who we will go and ask about, “Oh, I met this individual at an occasion two weeks in the past. Let’s faucet that up”. And the best way that we progress tasks is I feel as a result of Sarah’s naturally reflective, she’s considering via the implications of all the pieces, the longer-term outcomes. And since I am identical to, “Oh, I’ve seen this, why do not we give it a go? Let’s attempt it this week”, you get numerous tempo and fast issues from me, whereas you get the large wins from Sarah. So, I see this on a regular basis, however I feel you must have that dialog collectively. I feel that is the important thing bit, like what’s you, what’s me, and the place’s the we profit in it?
Thought for motion quantity two is to note what works. And I wish to begin with a danger right here. So, I feel the danger of this could possibly be that you simply may have a look at different folks and assume, “I must be extra like them”. So, I may be considering, “Oh gosh, Sarah’s wonderful. She is; truth. I must be extra –“
Sarah Ellis: Thanks!
Helen Tupper: It is all proper, I am going to offer you that. It is the top of a protracted day, all people, everybody wants some optimistic reinforcement. However I may be considering, “Oh, I must be extra like Sarah as a way to like, I would like to only do away with all of my extroversion and all of my Helen-ness, and I simply must be like Sarah”. And equally, Sarah as an introvert may assume, “Oh, as a way to succeed on this, I must turn into an extrovert”. And we have talked about this earlier than at first of our careers. Sarah, I bear in mind whenever you have been going into that gross sales function in early careers and also you thought you needed to be extra like an extrovert and lose your self and be extra like that as a way to succeed.
Sarah Ellis: I feel I believed that for fairly a very long time. I feel it took me fairly a very long time to let go of the form of extrovert, possibly generally expectations, and I feel I labored for fairly just a few extrovert leaders. So, you’ll be able to’t assist however form of be what you see.
Helen Tupper: Sure.
Sarah Ellis: And so, as a result of I might bought these aspirations and people ambitions, I used to be like, “Oh properly, if I wish to do these sort of roles with that scale of influence, then I must feel and look and sound a bit like that”. However inevitably, as quickly as I let go of that, I used to be method higher at my job.
Helen Tupper: Properly, that is the factor. I feel the issue with making an attempt to show your self into someone else is that it would not actually make you very joyful, and it would not make you as efficient as you may be. I bear in mind after I used to work at Capital One, which was an organisation that I beloved working in, however I’d say that the profile of the individual that succeeded was fairly completely different to me, as a result of they actually valued these analytical deep thinkers, who I’d say oriented way more in the direction of introversion. These are statisticians and analysts, they’re just like the super-brains, and making an attempt to be like them would have made me very sad and doubtless very ineffective as properly. So, what we’re making an attempt to say is to note what works. So, in these conditions that you simply’re in, it could possibly be a mission, it could possibly be the tradition of the corporate, you are not making an attempt to repeat someone else, however you are attempting to note what works.
So, as an instance I am in an organisation, there’s extra folks like Sarah than me, for instance, I may be considering like, “What’s it that Sarah does brilliantly?” And I feel that is a extremely good query to ask since you’re actually seeing somebody’s strengths in that scenario. So, I may be like, “It is the best way she pauses earlier than she contributes her considering, or it is the best way that she displays on the finish of a gathering”. No matter it’s, I’ll be very, very intentional about noticing what works. And the concept is that you simply’re including that on to how you’re employed. So, reasonably than form of taking me away, I am not making an attempt to be much less extrovert, I am not making an attempt to be much less Helen, I am simply making an attempt so as to add on a number of the sensible issues that Sarah does. And then you definately’re form of simply being your self, however a bit higher for that scenario, reasonably than shedding bits of your self within the course of.
Sarah Ellis: So, thought for motion quantity three, we’re calling “be looking out”, and we got here up with this thought after which realised that neither of us actually did it. So, that is in all probability an motion for each of us as a result of we expect this is able to be one thing that is actually helpful and we have been each like, “Oh, yeah, we do not actually we do not actually make this occur”. So, the rationale we have referred to as this “be looking out” is we would like you to look proactively for probabilities and alternatives to share your introversion, extroversion expertise, as a result of a few of these issues are traits however most of these traits then translate into expertise for the good thing about different folks. And I feel we in all probability all do that to some extent, reactively, unintentionally, simply via the course of our on a regular basis doing our jobs, however that is about being way more proactive and intentional.
So, if you happen to stated to me, “Okay, so that you like to essentially assume issues via and also you’re reflective and also you’re good at sort of asking and answering questions of your self, have you considered how and when that could possibly be helpful for the remainder of the Superb If group?” I’d be like, “No”. So, I’ve not. I do not assume I’ve deconstructed the form of expertise that I’ve ended up with, the sort of learnt expertise that I’ve bought higher at, partly due to my character, after which gone, “Who else, when else, the place else might these issues be helpful?” after which be actually sort of beneficiant in going, “Oh, properly this can be a mission that feels fairly advanced or the place we will must do some deep considering. I’ve bought some useful expertise right here, possibly I could make some options, possibly I will help to upskill another folks within the group”.
Helen Tupper: And I sort of assume I do know that I can create a fast group round an thought that we have got, to get some insights or to check one thing, and I feel I might actually assist somebody. I’ve by no means considered it earlier than, however I used to be having a dialog with a buddy final week. He is launching one thing, it is fairly early days of it, and truly, if I might considered it, if I might been extra looking out, I might have stated, “Inform me three issues that you are a bit fearful about or three bits of help you want”. I might simply create a bit of WhatsApp group of three or 4 people who I’d assume could possibly be of assist, and I might be like, “Look, why do not we get a WhatsApp group? They will have the ability to offer you some actually fast concepts and suggestions which may get you began”. That’s very easy and energising for me to do, however as a result of I feel I wasn’t looking out, I hadn’t thought how might my extroversion assist that individual; I simply did not counsel it. It is solely, “I’ll try this after”. After this podcast, I’ll get in contact with that individual and be like, “I used to be fascinated about you while I used to be speaking to Sarah, and I’d have the ability to assist in a method that I hadn’t thought via”.
Sarah Ellis: I suppose what that is, is basically making a optimistic bias in the direction of sharing what you already know. So, we at all times say in Squiggly Careers, “We must always all share what we all know so everybody can succeed, reasonably than maintain these items to ourselves”.
Helen Tupper: Properly, I feel it is much less about what you already know. I feel it is a optimistic bias in the direction of serving to folks together with your desire. A few of these issues aren’t all data. It is that you simply desire to assume issues via and so that you’re sort of going off, “I’ll have a optimistic bias to assist folks with my desire being an introvert”, then how are you — I do not know, a few of it is a expertise, a few of it is a talent, a few of it is simply extra of a desire.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, although I suppose to do it successfully, as a result of I am now considering if I am truly going to do that; to do it successfully, you have bought virtually translate. As a result of a desire, I feel you typically do not assume that — as a result of virtually, it’s a part of who I’m now, you already know, and so long as you are comfy with it, it is a part of your id. So, you are basically taking one thing that is extra possibly character, id, desire, and you will must do a bit of labor of turning it into, “Properly then virtually, what may that appear to be for different folks?”
So, one instance you gave me after we have been testing this concept, and believably we do take a look at these concepts earlier than we discuss them, you stated to me, “Oh, properly naturally I am good at doing introductions”. So, introductions, as a result of you already know numerous folks, you are able to do numerous introductions. So, that is virtually like a kind of issues that you have to give primarily based on — your extroversion means that you may give numerous creating connections, creating introductions. So, I feel I virtually must undergo that means of going, “Properly, what do these preferences and character traits then imply by way of what I’ve bought to offer?” after which be looking out for, “Who am I going to offer them to, when I’ll give them”. Feels like numerous work to do, mainly!
Helen Tupper: However hopefully, like after we talked about originally, what does this appear to be for you, that very first query, so I establish as an extrovert, what does that appear to be for me? Or what does Sarah see in me as an extrovert? I feel these are a number of the issues that you may go, like Sarah stated, “Oh, Helen places power right into a room”. So, what does that imply that I’ve bought to offer? I’ve bought, you already know, if somebody desires to begin one thing off, I’ve bought numerous power, I might sort of create that in a room. However I do assume it’s actually, what have I bought to offer primarily based on my desire? And there will be masses, there will be completely masses. And if you happen to’re struggling, as a result of that could possibly be fairly a frightening query, I feel, ask different folks like, “What are the strengths that you simply see in me?” you may get to a few of these insights. However that then may show you how to to attach the dots whenever you’re form of looking out for how one can assist folks.
Sarah Ellis: So, we hope that is been helpful for all you introverts and also you extroverts, equally vital extroverts on the market. When you’ve got every other concepts, instruments or strategies that you’ve got seen have labored rather well in your expertise, or one thing that maybe you have learnt that you simply’d prefer to share with our listeners, you will get in contact with us at any time. We’re helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com. We additionally love to listen to from you your concepts, so what would you want us to cowl within the podcast? Or, if there’s any consultants you’d significantly like us to method to interview as a part of our Ask the Specialists collection, tell us that too.
Helen Tupper: And all of these concepts for motion that we talked about shall be summarised within the PodSheet. So, you will discover that on our web site, amazingif.com, or on the present notes. And if you happen to ever cannot discover something, simply give us an e mail.
Sarah Ellis: So, that is all the pieces for this week. Again with you once more quickly, however bye for now.
Helen Tupper: Bye everybody.